A Bold Suggestion...

Joined: Posts: -19

Hmm, I'd say we should separate these topics - but all of them are so closely intertwined. Though it might make it easier and more efficient to post ideas regarding specific topics.

Anyhow, what happens when players begin to sell unobtainable items from these zones to non fos players, or hell even giving them to them?

I don't know I'm torn. It would be wrong to place players who do not choose (as it is in its current form) to drink from the Fountain of Slaughter at a disadvantaged state from that of players who do choose to drink. (as it is I believe its pk optional) And that just wouldn't be fair.

Even if items themselves were to be flagged, it would be still put them at a disadvantage. In that light, the only options or are systematic auto fos, or leaving it as it is with its current setup, and hope all is well?

Joined: Posts: -19

Aurloc wrote:

I think there should still be player gms, but i do like the circles based on ranks, simply because the gms rule with an iron fist, and if anyone tries to run for GM bam outcast... and honestly its just easier to reroll new chars rather than screw around for a few weeks trying to RP your way back into good graces. And some gms only show up like once a week, if even that, which sucks now that there are skill restrictions.

THANK YOU. Hit the nail right on the head.

Some guilds in this game are run by, excuse my language, complete assholes who want nothing more than their name above everyone else on who "who" list, and make it a pain in the ass to gain circle promotions, especially if they know who you are OOC, and RP like they just don't like you, when it's actually them bringing OOC into IC and acting like it's not. Even more so if you run for GM, and the GM is never around but once every week or two, just popping in to check mail, and logging back out. That's not a GM, that's a player trying to show "activity" to hold their artifact.

And if you try to take that artifact from them...suddenly you don't respect them, like you should have in the first place after NEVER meeting them (I still don't understand how holding the artifact demands automatic respect even if you don't know what RACE the guy is, much less his attitude or view on certain topics.). Then your outcast, and treated like a traitor and a jerk just because you wanted to keep a few members who log in, hit 40 at circle 1, and never hear from their GM, so they delete and reroll into a more active guild.

I vote for rank-driven circles, none of this "roleplay with me or you'll get nowhere" bullshit. I can't stand being told that I HAVE to take time out of my day to sit at the fountain with you and discuss the weather.

I really like the idea, Melleth, and I hope I see it in game soon!

Joined: Posts: -19

Sevristh wrote:

First off, I will respond to Pibby's accusations... Son, you need to get your facts straight. My guild charter says nothing of besting me in combat. There is a system in place to replace the fighter GM with due process. You'd know that if you were actually speaking from experience, and not just spouting the words of an offended friend. Furthermore, your friend had PLENTY of chances to actually RP through the mess that he made. A mess, I might add, which was made by extremely poor choices IC as well as flaming OOC posts.

-Sev

Lemme see if my Fighter guild knowledge has held out for all this time...

The "proper" way to take over the fighters guild, short of "take the artifact from me, and uberpowerful fighter who can all but solo the citadel no problem" is to have a vote of all the active members. If the vote is in majority of one person, that person wins the election, and is hereby instated into the GM position. But, as I recall, the GM can call a "Circle of Blades" vote into action, to decide the matter once and for all. And from what I remember, your Circle of Blades, Sev, is 2 people who never log on, and who I'm sure are at least online friends of yours who could pop in for a few moments to write a "nope" post on the board before logging off for a few more months again. Then, if the majority of the Circle of Blades votes is for the current GM, which they always will be, the vote is tossed aside, and more than likely the person who wanted GM is outcast, or at least treated as hostile, and given circles and gear reluctantly, if at all.

Is that about right for your "proper channels" Sev?

Joined: Posts: -19

Would you like a handkerchief to mop up all those tears??

You sound like a whining little brat.

"I don't WANNA roleplay mommy!! Make the bad man stop yelling at me!!"

Get a life. If you are who I think you are, you RP'd like a moron, took stuff OOC in mudmails and generally acted like am imbecile. Melleth was kept abreast of your actions as you did all this, so I am not worried in the least when you start running your mouth again on the boards under some new name.

To put it bluntly... Piss off...

Joined: Posts: -19

I expected nothing less from you, Sev.

And the stuff that I took OOC in mudmails was a topic that we agreed on beforehand, shortly after the creation of my character. I'm a powergamer, I don't have time for your "WUT YUR DOIN IN ME GILD SONNY?!" BS. I play to level, not to waste time talking to people about nothing. I can roleplay later, when I get to a reasonable rank and power, because, like Ciroth said, most hostile RPs end in "draw your blade or shut up" which I seem to remember you stating at least once.

I gained 120+ ranks in just under 3 weeks in your guild. I was on constantly. I might have seen you twice, and never for more than 10 minutes at a time. I got zero help from you. Your officer, Koluminati, was infinitely helpful to me, risking death to get me some stuff to poof away.

All you did was sit behind your artifact.

But, of course, I'm sure you'll have a completely different story, like "Just because you don't see me on doesn't mean I'm not on!" GM's need to be active pretty often. I saw 4 people come and go in that guild because you were never there, and LT's can't do anything but make keys for the storage room.

You're unfit as a GM, and you're just butthurt over the truth of the statement.

EDIT: Also, since you didn't deny my "proper channels" rant up there, i'm assuming my memory has held out for all these years. So, yeah, my last post is how the "proper channels" of trying to take the Fighter GM position will go. You'll be outcast, usually, or just treated as hostile and not given any circle promotions until you suck up to Sev for a week or two.

Joined: Posts: -19

Please...

Once again :

If you award circles based on rank, that only takes away from every aspect that seperates this game from WoW. The entire structure of guilds, the charters, the guild quests and the power of a GM are based on GM AWARDED CIRCLES!

The idea of a rank 2 circle awarded at some level is a great compromise, but damnit this idea of destroying guild charters is ludacrous. Pick a guild with an active GM, roleplay your other guildies into a rebellion, petition an IMMORTAL if you feel you are being treated unfairly. Even a 2nd circle based on rank has a HUGE drawback by allowing anyone to read our guild boards (ALSO CIRCLE BASED).

There is a reason a GM gets to award circles :

So douchebags can't come in and steal skills they're not supposed to and dual into another guild for a couple of levels until they get what skill they are after and etc. If you suffer at the way a player runs a GM, reroll and try to adjust your gameplan. If a police officer pulls you over and you spit in his face, he tazes the shit out of you right? Rolling Eyes

This is a GIANT leap backwards and upsets a delicate balance.

Why have circle restrictions on skills? Shouldn't it just be level based then, indeed why even have circles?

And if there are no circles, why have a GM?

And if there are no GMs, why have a guild?

And if there are no guilds, why even level?

Bottom line :

If you feel you are being treated unfairly by your GM, petition an Immortal.

*EDIT*

Had to delete a whole section of me screaming in caps and cursing like a sailor. This is not the proper avenue for you two to engage in a urination domination (patent pending on pissing contest monicker).

@Sev :
Grats on being a hard-ass figher who runs his guild like a boot camp, but our playerbase is miniscule... Use your best judgement.

@Oro :

As a member of a guild rife with dualling members, acknowledge that Sev may just be doing this for the guild he represents. I don't know what circle you are stuck at, but just be glad you have an active GM. If you've ever run a guild, then surely you must admit that stealing a GM's power to grant circle promotions (especially high end circle promos) significantly reduces their ability to run a guild.

Truthfully, I think the problem everyone is having is with circle skill restrictions. So you would all circumvent the very reason they were put in by changing circles entirely?

Foolish... Evil or Very Mad

Joined: Posts: -19

I think Orophin needs a box of never ending tissues for her whining and crying. If you got beef with a character, drink from the fountain of slaughter and settle it like a warrior.

Secondly, this has gone completely off topic. You squables should be posted on the Fighters Forum, and not polute the mainstream forums.

Thirdly, this game is based on role play, and not power gaming. More people need to develop characters that are memorable and unique. There is more to the game than just stats.

Joined: Posts: -19

Thorgrim wrote:

If you got beef with a character, drink from the fountain of slaughter and settle it like a warrior.

Thirdly, this game is based on role play, and not power gaming. More people need to develop characters that are memorable and unique. There is more to the game than just stats.

Those are two very differing opinions, Thorgrim. If I have a problem with a character, you think I should just "Drink from the fountain and fight them like a warrior", as if there is no other way to deal with the problem....yet you believe we need to develop more "memorable and unique" characters, and not power game. The only problem with that, is if we do have problems with our GM's, and we take your "GRR ME NO LIKE YOU" route, all we get is kicked out, and probably set to circle 1 for a few weeks.

This game is, as you may have noticed, is RP Encouraged. It's no longer RP Enforced, which means that when any of the GM's in the game try to FORCE RP out of their members for gear/circle promotions, it's going against the aspect of the game that certain person may have come to this realm for. You can come here to RP, or you can come here to levelgrind and get gear. I prefer no bullshit when I level. I wanna bang out as many levels as fast as I can, and not sit around chatting. It's a MUD, not a chatroom. If I wanted a roleplay mud, I'd go to a mud where there are no stats, just descriptions, and the player RP's EVERYTHING.

Once again, I'll say that I'm all in for rank-driven circles in the game, to prevent "RP hate" like I've seen a lot of. Where a GM attempts RP, I don't want to do it, so they get butthurt and suddenly I'm the bad guy because I want to get powerful, and they have nothing to do all day because the hardest zones in the game aren't really a challenge anymore, so they sit there and waste my time.

Yes, yes, GM's still need some control over their members to make it feel like they're in control, but having absolute control over a members advancement is a bit much. So, we can get rid of the GM's control over circles, and expulsion, but then every GM will start crying about not being able to hassle their members if they don't like them. So, that's where the FoS at 50 thing comes in to play. If they start mouthing off to their GM, the GM just kills them, possibly after a warning or two.

And yeah, everyone keeps complaining about dualling characters. When's the last time anyone dualled more than once, anyway? And, if it's that much of a problem, why not raise the dualling costs even more, and possibly put a level requirement on it? Like, you can't leave a guild until you get at least 50 levels in it? That seems like a good idea to me.

Joined: Posts: -19

Zyghart wrote:

And if there are no GMs, why have a guild?

That's not very good logic, Zyg.

"If someone isn't in charge, why even bother joining the guild?!"

Is that just because there's no potential to get an artifact weapon after a GM deletes, or just because there's no GM to speak to once in a while? Because having NPC GM's wouldn't bother me at all. There are still clans that players can lead, and if we open more options to item and weapon creation, we may be able to solve the "boo hoo hoo my GM weapon is gone!" thread before it starts.

All the people who have GM weapons at this point are capable of getting almost any equipment in the game, anyway, so losing their rune weapon won't cripple them. It'll just make them have to think like a regular player, and not a demi-god.

"Wait what?! I won't have 5 heals, a recall, a haste, and a sanc rune when I go into a battle?! How will I survive!??!"

You were regular players, however brief, before you got your artifact. I think that 80% of the drama in the game is caused by those artifacts, and the people who want them. If you want to bring the RP aspect back to this game, Melleth, take away the GM weapons. We'll see who will actually want to RP a leader position, and who's just in it for the runes, and the weapon script.

And yeah, I'm pretty sure that GM's and their lapdogs are going to get a little upset over this post, but it's the truth. If GM's only had the power to run their guild with circle promotions/demotions, and didn't have the most powerful weapon in the game in their hands since they took over the Guild, it'd really show who's cut out of the right material to be a GM, and who's just in it for power and fame.

Joined: Posts: -19

If you want to power level, then do it without circles. If you want circles, a modicum of RP is required by some of the GM's. If you don't want to RP, then don't join those guilds. Maybe you should have checked on the requirements of the specific guilds before you joined?

Joined: Posts: -19

Sevristh wrote:

If you want to power level, then do it without circles. If you want circles, a modicum of RP is required by some of the GM's. If you don't want to RP, then don't join those guilds. Maybe you should have checked on the requirements of the specific guilds before you joined?

Quote:

Guild of Fighters

The Fighters are the most elite warriors in the realm. They are masters of all types of weapons, and are able to use whatever tools and techniques necessary to get the job done. Their extreme training allows them to absorb more damage than any other profession, easily shrugging off blows that would crumple lesser individuals. Strong and daring, Fighters will always be found on the front line of a battle.

Requirements:

- Fighters may be of any race and ethos

- Fighters must strive always to improve their combat abilities

- Fighters must be able to work with others as part of a team

I did. I don't see anything about having to roleplay to advance in your guild, nor does it state that I must do so on the description of Dreamscapes on any MUD site, nor on the Dreamscapes site itself. We're an RP Encouraged, not an RP Enforced mud. Basically, I can't be punished for not roleplaying on this mud.

Regardless, I'm not a member of your guild anymore, so I've no say over how you run your guild (not that I would even if I was a member, but that's besides the point). I was using you as an example of how GM power is so easily abused when members do not bend to your will at all times.

Joined: Posts: -19

Orophin...

1 thing above all else makes DS unique.

Player run guilds.

Since the inception of Dreamscapes' artifacts, there have been players who despise them and the players who wield them. Not every GM will rule their guild forever, and for those players who are most dedicated to their guild the position awaits with the artifact. Dualling happens, you're right, but damnit if a GM wants it to. Some guilds even threaten to hunt you down eternally if you do so, while others trade guildies as bargains or part of treaty in times of war. Others still just guild bounce in attempt to be a demi-god themselves...

You said it yourself :

"80% of the drama in the game is caused by artifacts..."

That IS roleplaying, its the only remnant of anything remotely RP'ish we have left in DS. Sure, its not an RP enforced realm but it is encouraged. Dreamscape's entire history is built around roleplay and thats just the way it is.

An artifact is powerless in a GM's hand the very moment you put it against another GM's weapon. If you need someone dead and can't do it yourself, make backhanded deals in a desperate bid for power with another GM. Illicit a contract for chrissake...

If your problem is with artifacts, you need to learn more about them. Maybe you should take your beef up with custom weapons, should they have scripts and runes?

They're already expensive as all hell, why not tack on another 100,000 quest tokens? lol Shocked

Joined: Posts: -19

I do like our GM system...I just think that safeguards need to be put in place against abuse, or maybe a strict punishment system for those who bend or break the rules regarding the use or misuse of circle promotions, or when outcasting a member.

If we want to re-introduce RP into the realm, that's fine. If we want to make it an RP enforced MUD, then Sev and Evelana have perfect grounds to promote, demote, and outcast based on the result of their attempts at roleplaying. But, since we are RP encouraged, not every member needs to roleplay, and I won't have the GM tell me that I WILL roleplay or reroll, as it were.

As I've stated before, I'm a powergamer, and I want to play to level, and get gear. I enjoy it. Some people don't, and would rather sit around and try to create drama, or talk about the weather.

So, that being said, we need some kind of fallback system to prevent against GM abuse with demotions/outcasting because of a lack of RP on the guild members part.

Assistant Implementor Joined: Dec 31, 2007 Posts: 226

You're right, RP is encouraged, not enforced. However I believe the reason we have player GMs in the first place is so that they can encourage RP, if you're interested in playing this game purely as a "powergamer" then perhaps instead of seeing the GM as an obstacle that you need to get around, see each circle requirement (them setting you a quest or whatever) as another level to attain.

If you're punished and reduced in circles and outcast it must be through SOMETHING you're doing wrong, which suggests to me you're only shooting yourself in the foot. If the GM is stopping you from "playing the game" then that's something more serious and perhaps you should bring it to our attention through logs and such (that we can check against the game logs)

Joined: Posts: -19

Was perusing some old articles, and it just hit me.

I had encountered a number of new (and old) players who are experiencing difficulties involving their guild progressions, and are in need of some Imm assistance. Each of these players had expressed concerns, as they had exasperated all possible avenues for contact and resolution.

Thank you on their behalf in advance.