A Bold Suggestion...

Joined: Posts: -19

I think the point Vydon, Sev, and Evelana are getting to is that people are not spending enough time developing their characters.

For example, I have only been playing for about a year, and Thorgrim since September or so, and I out rank almost all characters in the realm.

Ciroth, I would love to make a deep story hunt with an other character, but most people delete their character around rank 100 or so. No characters stick around long enough for me to say "Hey <character>, remember when we did this?". I don't have many people to hunt with because most people don't go the distance with their characters.

Like I suggested, I think the first circle should be automatic, but that is it. Anything more would ruin the dynamics of role play, and water down guilds that have a rich history, like the Assassins.

I think the only way to deal with big mouth characters is to make everyone PK-able. I mean, if a newbie adventurer can go pick a fight with an Eternity Dragon, why not another character?

Joined: Posts: -19

The FoS debate had been dead for some time, and in most ways has been solved.

It all falls back on roleplay, not everyone will play a character with bloodlust. While I may personally see it as cowardly, I can respect the idea at the very least and welcome any attempt at any sort of roleplay.

I am guilty of the ol' to 100 and delete clause you mentioned... I've done it lots of times, and most times I never make it past 70. I like this character though and should be around a good long while, especially with so many avenues available to me FOR roleplay. (Speaking of which, I really need to finish this story I got going...)

You've heard of casual Fridays, yes? Why don't we dedicate a whole day a month to the purists? I know I would enjoy it, figuring out how to say things in character is a kind of semantics I fully enjoy most of the time. As for percentages and numbers.... why yes that does seem out of character, but honestly the words provide too far a range of uncertainty. If a fight has to come a close end, chances are bloody is not gonna save someone... Just my 2 cents on that though.

Guild master inactivity! Yes! 3 wks - 1 month seems perfect.
It doesn't matter what you have going on in real life at that point, chances are you have already turned away 5 or so new guildies by simple inactivity.
Most of them don't stay anyway, but every guild deserves the best chance possible at success.

2nd circle autopromotion sounds great as well (Maybe at around the same time the sheeny backpack armor works no longer?).... but there is still the issue with guild boards. I hate to add rules, but maybe make the idea board for newbies and ideas and the other for circle 3 and up guildies?

Anyway, nice well laid out arguements here. No mud being thrown too bad, lets keep it that way. Cool

Joined: Posts: -19

BOO!

Hi everybody. Just checking back on the game I spent soooo much time on.

I must say I love this thread and seeing some familiar names in it. As one of the former 'regulars' I'll give my 2 cents.

1. Roleplay:
Definitely keep it! It's what CAN set DS apart. Unfortunately, very often it doesn't because it doesn't go further than 'Greetings good sir!'. RP is what keeps high level characters from mindlessly killing lower level GMs, people with less-epic equipment, etc. A playerbase focused on RP doesn't have to grind characters up to 200 as quickly as possible.

2. GMs:
A good GM can be a tremendous motivational force for new players. GMs should be experienced and involved players though, who have been through the ranks and have seen most of the quests and items the game has to offer. Having had 4 GM chars of over lvl 200 myself, I found out that in the end the hunting just got boring. I enjoyed half an hour of it, but then wanted to spend time on cleaning up the Guild, thinking up quests, etc. Mostly, I just wanted to talk to people. Unfortunately, there weren't many people to talk to by then.
When I was a new player, L'lysandriad was my GM and his RP and experience inspired me to explore the realm, to think up a history of my character, etc. Without him, I wouldn't have stuck to the game for so long.

3. GM artifacts:
Keep 'em. As simple as that. The reason why they may be seen as an unbalancing and unfair tool right now is because we create circumstances in which they become a deciding factor. When there's no RP and leveling up and gathering godly equipment is all that matters, then being a GM with an artifact is a huge advantage and everybody wants to be one. As soon as RP catches up, there's not so much need for a powerful artifact to set yourself apart anymore and it will return to the symbolic item it once was.

4. Guild circles, etc:
One of the most important jobs for the GM! Again, this isn't a problem because of the way it works, it's because of the circumstances surrounding it: GMs (like all players) are too busy grinding their characters to stay on top of the game, and thinking of quests and talking to guild members becomes an inconvenience in between hunts. Change the situation and this problem disappears.

5. FOS:
Make everybody FOS automatically after rank 50. If people are RPing, there won't be many mindless or OOC-grudge killings.

6. Active IMMs:
THE single most important factor. Much like GMs can motivate guild members, so can the Imms motivate players in general. Imms mainly need to do 2 things:
1) Show themselves, not necessarily in the game, but around the boards. By doing code updates, etc. People need to know they are around. Be visible! Nobody plays a community game like DS if it's dead.
2) Work on the game! New zones and quests are what it's all about. Also special Imm quests. It used to connect players soooo well! This obviously takes the most time.

I realize this is asking QUITE an investment in time and effort, but for the game to flourish it is absolutely necessary. It will also create more understanding and appreciation from the players, and will make the 'job' more enjoyable for the Imms.

7. Number system:
Bring it back! Removing numbers NEVER helped encouraging RP. In fact, it just made things more vague and difficult. The prime RP game, AD&D, has numbers and stats everywhere! By presenting all the stats visibly and clearly it takes away the importance of figuring it all out. Having to think about stats too much may draw players away from RP and into the stat-obsessed mindset.

8. Factions:
It never worked, just made things more difficult and annoying. It MIGHT work if all alignments had the same quality of hunting grounds, but even then I doubt it would contribute significantly to the game. It's not nice for the Imms because they put a lot of effort in it, but the game was really better without it.
Not getting combat XP for fighting the same alignment already was 'punishment' enough.

9. Dualing:
People dual for 2 reasons: 1) power, and 2) no bond with Guild. In the past, dualling has led to insanely powerful characters. I've had 2 duallers of over rank 200 and they were pretty much untouchable. They were fully 'planned out' and hopped through at least 3 Guilds, taking the most valuable skills. Looking back, it has NOT made me enjoy the game more.
Maybe limit dualling to 2 Guilds and make it so it cannot be done until both GMs approve? Also, make staying in your Guild more satisfying. For example by introducing more skills whose power is based on Guild lvl/circle. Ofcourse, also because of good and involved GMs that make you want to stay with a Guild.
Ideally, every Guild would have so many skill/spell options you could make different 'types' of characters within a Guild. For example, one Mage focused on enchanting, and another on summoning. This requires a LOT of work though.

10. Outcast and expel:
Remove outcast, keep expel. If you mess up too much, you get kicked out of your Guild. Of course some people will do this on purpose because they want to get into another Guild. That's a disadvantage I'd be willing to accept because it still makes more sense than the way outcasting works now. In a heavy RP situation, this creates plenty of chances for interaction!

Ok, I'm writing too much and losing focus. Was nice to check back on DS! I might do it more often.

Joined: Posts: -19

Well said indeed Adun. I can't find a single thing in your post that I disagree with. I especially like bringing the numbers back and the auto FoS at 50.

Having everyone automatically go FoS at 50 will take care of the small problem of non-FoS people starting trouble without having to face the consequences.

As far as numbers go, really the only numbers currently missing are the specific stats of a weapon when identified, and hp/mana/move in prompt. I just use percentages instead, and it works well enough, but for some reason I prefer seeing my actual numbers, like in a turn based console rpg (i.e. final fantasy and the like)

It WOULD be really nice to see weapon damage again though. The compare system is far too vague.

Joined: Posts: -19

Weapon damage numbers would be helpful I agree...everything just OBLITERATES anyway after a certain point so maybe another higher description of damage could work if numbers will not

Joined: Posts: -19

Bringing the requirements of FOS to apply automatically to all characters rank 50 and higher is an excellent idea.

I can see and understand why it is a player decision, but at the same time it is very unrealistic. Giving players some amount of time to adjust seems fair, with level 50 being a fairly large rank that would require a good amount of work and understanding to reach. (hopefully *laughs*)

Everyone plays on a fair plane, no one is immune - its healthy, and I'm sure it will make for some more realistic scenarios within guilds and amongst conflicting players. Hopefully gone are the days of unrestrictable actions and unanswerable offenses.

As for the number system - I honestly haven't noticed too big of a change with the prompt the way it is now. (How do you people even REMEMBER what it was like having number prompts anyhow...?) As for the numbers concerning items and stats - it would be nifty to get a more accurate grasp on weapon damage, especially with the way repair works - I can imagine it would be difficult to keep a close eye on one's weapon.

The outcast command has many functions - first and foremost is to punish the offender. Secondly, it informs the realm that this person is unsavory in their actions toward their own guild. In many ways, its a form of public humiliation, as well as a lesson learned. As it stands, allowing the expel command to stay in will only serve to give a free dual to someone's friend, as it would generally take a very large, repeated offense to get someone booted completely (I would hope) - This is where the outcast command is handy. When a demotion or verbal scolding simply is not enough, but outright expulsion is to extreme, what does one do? Punch the offender in the nose?

Joined: Posts: -19

Rank 50 FoS is very reasonable. Ideally I'd just like to see everyone FoS and hope that there's a good reason for PK'ing when it does actually happen, regardless of rank. If you're going to play an unsavory character, you better be prepared for the consequences. If you don't remember you're beserk and walk in on me, it'll be the first and last time you're going to make that mistake (one would hope)! If it's a matter of allowing time to adjust, most times someone is accidentally killed people are somewhat understanding and try to help them out. I think we should bring back the JAIL punishment for PK (when's the last time someone was sent to jail?).

As for outcasting, I think it is useful. As Vydon pointed out it serves the purpose of reprimanding members without completely expelling them. It's like a time-out. I wouldn't want to see this avenue of discipline removed, it has come in handy.

As for what Adun was saying about IMM involvement... New zones etc would be nice... code updates would be better... but the best would be to know that we still have support. I know I'm not the only one who feels disappointed that it takes ages to get concerns addressed. Special IMM quests would be good fun (even regular prince quests would be fun)... but not so fun if things don't quite work... It is a valid point that is a lot of work, but once upon a time these people WERE active in the realm. Once upon a time the things that are broken worked... Things change, perhaps our system of handling problems needs to change too. I realize everyone's quite busy (hell, I work 70hrs a week!), and our admin is hours different than us... but something needs to happen. I know I'm not the lone voice of contention either. Maybe we should post some help wanted on those MU*'s that have support for MU*'s (I forget the one I was on, but I'd be happy to find it again)? I don't know really what we can do, but I hope something happens...

Joined: Posts: -19

1 Agreed! We need more rp! Dwarven fighters wearing Dresses of Autumn Leaves is not cool!

2 Like you said, good GMs make the game great. Having someone there to mentor a young character and show them the ropes.

3 Keep them sure, I don't know why everyone is so fussed about them. It's not the blade that makes the warrior, its the warrior that makes the blade.

4 No comment

5 Auto FOS sounds great! It would definatley bring those big mouth charcters into line. Also, it's a shame being an merchant without having anyone to murder.

6 Having the Imms visable would be cool, and helpful, and motivational.

7 I don't know what is the big deal is about this. I guess it could help one up their potential a bit.

8 I could go either way. It only really affects neutral characters and what side they choose.

9 Dualing does require GM approval to enter a guild after ditching the first one. I think there are enough penalties for dualing, such as the gold/qt cost, the loss of guild bonus abilites scores and bonus skills, the lack of ranks for rank based skills, and the lack of training sessions one can aquire. Also duals can't become GM. There is a reason why not many people dual anymore.

10 Remove outcast and expel, and replace them with automatic FOS after 50th rank. That should keep wayward characters in line.

Joined: Posts: -19

Ohh...

The last time we started in on this Auto-FoS thing, I believe Melleth got kind of angry. Hard to read inflection on a board though.

It would be awesome to have, but you have to admit it would flat out turn some players away. We do not need that, we need every single last player we can get.

Perhaps make FoS more rewarding?

Maybe some monsters and NPCs should have FoS tags. Lobo, Diablous and Sehaelas priest/priestess, etc.

Maybe some zones should be only FoS. Astral Plane, Holy City, or maybe a new one? Not really sure about this honestly...

Just some food for thought, and a small voice of dissention.

Joined: Posts: -19

Outcast is a great ability for a GM to discipline a wayward member, but I have to say again how it is taken advantage of.

Up and coming little member is tired of his GM never being around, he has been stuck at circle 2 for over a month now and has 150 practice sessions saved up. For whatever reason, his GM doesn't really like him, and chooses to ignore him, hoping he'll reroll another class. The little member has had enough! "Fine," he says, "I'll just rally the younger members of the guild and call a vote for a new GM." The GM logs on to see that a young rebel is displeased with their leadership abilities and wishes for the guild to have a new leader.

Does the GM:

A) Start a campaign to win over the votes of the younger members?

B) Try and convince the younger members to call off the election?

C) Call a council of high ranking members to discuss a plan of action?

D) Outcast this little troublemaker to scare other members into not crossing you either, leading to the eventual deletion of said troublemaker, and therefore securing your position as GM til next time?

Sadly, D happens more than any of the other options listed here. Simply stated, the "outcast" command is ABUSED by GMs as a lazy way to deal with members they don't like. If outcast is to remain in, I think rules should be implemented to keep it from being abused. It should be reserved for traitors. Let us keep in mind, an outcast member is also killable by anyone, FoS or not (or used to be, I believe) Would it be fair of me to outcast a rank 50 mage and make him an easy target for the realm to kill and steal from, just because he doesn't think I'm a good GM? If I'm MIA for weeks and weeks and not answering any mail or doing my job, that little mage has EVERY RIGHT to question my leadership abilities.

Thats my two cents.

Joined: Posts: -19

Zyghart wrote:

Maybe some zones should be only FoS. Astral Plane, Holy City, or maybe a new one? Not really sure about this honestly...

Love it!

Joined: Posts: -19

There used to be a bug, or whatever, that would prevent an Outcast character from expelling themselves from their guild, because they "didn't belong to any guild".

Joined: Posts: -19

Every guild has a charter, perhaps its time for a GM charter to be placed in the Temple of Guild Unity.

There needs to be a code of conduct for leaders in the realm.

That being said, a GM needs every option available to them to run a guild. Every guild needs every option available to prosper though...

A GM charter is touchy on roleplay, as some guilds will never be on the same page about things, but there are balance guilds to mediate.

Meh... I had a nice one all nice and written, but we would undoubtedly argue to the death over the semantics. /delete

Honestly, I'm totally in favor of the one month absense-new election clause.

If a guildie is forcibly being suppressed for no other reason than dislike, shouldn't they just report thier GM? This issue confuses me, I can't remember ever being in a guild where this happened. I'm sure it happens though...somewhere.

*Edit*

Jail! Yes, awesome. I've seen references all over DS about it, it would be wonderful for that to come back. Could be problematic for my guild though...

Joined: Posts: -19

Jail is something that should be highly reconsidered. (why did it no longer work anyhow ; or was that the idea to remove it?)

It does seem a bit silly that one of us had they decided to go on a bit of a killing spree, as long as no other player decided to retaliate (whether out of fear or otherwise) would walk away completely free and clear. I'm not too sure about that, and wasn't it spelled Gail? I could of sworn I remember something to that degree.

Outcast is so abuseable it allows the offending member to still promote? Hm

The idea of fos only area does not exactly make sense, (unless of course it was a slaughterground for FOS duels...) but then again the entire idea of fos doesn't really make sense - so why not. =)

Joined: Posts: -19

The only reason for an FoS zone would be added incentive for players to drink from the fountain. Of course it would be a high incident pvp conflict area, but there should be more rewarding reasons for being FoS than just being able to kill and loot somebody.

I was more in favor of FoS tagged NPCs, but the other just seemed like a logical second step. Imagine only being able to get unholy blades of darkness if you were FoS, or dragon's teeth for that matter... there are others but you get the drift. Added incentives, perks of the tag, etc.