A Bold Suggestion...

Joined: Posts: -19

This post will be ignored but...

Let's just DROP the whole RP aspect of this game. Yes, that's what I said.

Seriously, WHAT do have to lose? Our player base has atrophied down into singal digit numbers. The only people who are still around are the same people from WAY back when and know the inner workings of this game to a science. If you were around back in 2000, like me, any time, day or night, there was a good collection of people on. Now, you're lucky if you see ONE other person.

Nobody REALLY RPs anyway. It's all about levels, and gear. There's SOME really minimal RP at times (like who should hunt with who, or where we can hunt). But here's a hint... The last GM meeting that was held, the supposed pinical of RP between the leaders of the realm, guess what happened: Almost NOBODY showed up. It was me, Sapphar, and Dolmont. Where Dolmont proceeded to speak OOC, and simply bounce questions back "But how should a GM behave?". It was a disaster. Nothing was accomplised, and it was a clear sign of where RP was at the time.

So here's my suggestion.

1. Just drop the RP. I'm not saying we need to regress into "hi any1 wnt to lvl lol" But all this "RP" crap we have currently is nonsense fueled by OOC drama, when one character from 2003 forgot to shake hands with another character when they were hunting the Haunted House. Get over it. Or Pkilling to get to a GM because she can't understand another GM's crappy accent. It doesn't work, and it never will with this community.

2. Go back to the numbers. People have custom prompts to see percents, ANYWAY and everybody uses score 3 to see numbers, so ditch the descriptions, go back to the numbers.

3. KEEP the Guild Quests. I've seen nearly every Guild Quest, and in most cases, they are a good introduction to that guild, and provides some basic tutorials of how DS works, etc.

4. KEEP the Guild Circles, they are fine.

5. KEEP the Guild Series items.

6. DITCH the faction system. It never REALLY worked, and nobody in the community was very happy with it. Yes, yes, it helps exploration, but with too many problems to make it worth.

And you guys won't like this...

7. Get rid of the GM power. Yes. It creates problems for the community when two players have OOC issues with each other. Players fight and step over each other for that GM artifact. KEEP the artifacts, but make them symbols of the guild. The purpose of the GM is to help their guild. So get rid of their power to mow down all who oppose them, and place them in a position of responsibitly, NOT power. Let's see people putting their name up for GM when they actually need to answer to the guild and act more like a leader and less like a deity.

and finally...

Q. We need to advertise. Badly. If we ditch the RP, and all the confusing nonsense it takes to start a character here, we might see our numbers climbing again.

But, you guys will ignore it, say things are fine the way they are, and go back to soloing Sehaelas with Oblivion. Hording the money for yourself, and getting closer to becoming godlike in DS. Yay.

Oh well.

Joined: Posts: -19

Same old players?

I'm here daily, and we get quite a few new players on a regular basis.

One or two a week curious about a link from another mud site.

The problem isn't RP, it isn't GMs, its attendance plain and simple.

What reason is there to play a mud if there isn't at least minimal RP?

If you want grindcore go play WoW for chrissake...

What's the rush to rank?

There's plenty to do here, and so what if we don't follow every exact rule of role play... I have a sense of what you're alluding to.

Perhaps less time should be spent in semantics and D&Desque you broke the rules and are banned for life tactics, and more time should be spent on enjoying the game.

Because after all...

This IS a game, and meant to be enjoyed.
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Want more players?

V
O
T
E

Joined: Posts: -19

Drop role play? Are you serious?

Come on now. This is a role playing game after all. If you do manage to run into a new player, of course you can drop the formalities and give them some pointers.

Besides advertisment, we need to make a friendly way to introduce new people to the game. If I didn't have someone to introduce the game to me, help me download it, install it, boot it, configure, and show me the ropes, I would have never have learned to play. Thank you Evelana.

Converting to numbers seems kinda boring, kinda like data entry or something.

Guilds quest are great I agree, but the ranger one is lame because it requires the GM to enrol them, but there is never a Ranger GM around, thus that is why there is no rangers.

As for player numbers Ciroth, you are never around anyways. If you were around more you would realize there are more players out there.

Implementor Joined: Dec 9, 2006 Posts: 202

The only thing I am considering here is regarding GMs. GMs would no longer be able to set guild circles and outcast and enrol. Circles would be gained automatically as you gain ranks in the guild and maybe after a quest.

What do you all think?

We do get drip fed new players but 75% do not stick around due to the lack of other players. It is not having an RP encouraged policy that causes this. I have a project bubbling along that will drive players through DS and encourage them to stay and play, but that is for the future. What we need to do now is VOTE and write REVIEWS on mud sites, and current players play as long as possible and help the newbies out, making them feel welcome!

Joined: Posts: -19

Ouch Melleth...

I think one of the largest reasons people stay here is the fact that players run the guilds...

If GMs can't outcast or reward their guildies with circles, it significantly reduces their ability to run the guild.

The GM would be little more than a figure head then...

Setting guild circles encourages role playing, outcasting is an answer to problem guildies but enrolling.... sure get rid of that one.

Just my two cents here, but please do not abolish circles and outcasting.

I think it would drastically turn this into even more of a rat race if circles are gained through ranks rather than merit...

And what avenue would a GM have to remove a guildie who breaks ranks?

I guess outcasting and enrolling could be removed, but circles?

Joined: Posts: -19

I think there should still be player gms, but i do like the circles based on ranks, simply because the gms rule with an iron fist, and if anyone tries to run for GM bam outcast... and honestly its just easier to reroll new chars rather than screw around for a few weeks trying to RP your way back into good graces. And some gms only show up like once a week, if even that, which sucks now that there are skill restrictions.

Joined: Posts: -19

I appreciate the input and am no way trying to be condescending, but to me this completely, COMPLETELY changes Dreamscapes.

If a GM outcasts someone for trying to run for GM, then they are abusing the outcast function and should be reported.

If your GM is not around, and you cannot gain circles... perhaps there is a way to meet somewhere in the middle on this issue.

Perhaps, instead of removing circles completely new players should be able to rank to circle 5 along the lines of equivalent ranks and skills. (Which would bring up an issue with guild boards at the very least)

Removing circles completely destroys the Assassin guild, it would have to be reworked from the ground up for chrissake.

I fail to see how this would in any way encourage roleplaying or move us further away from Grindcraft...

Here's a pro's and con's list, modify it how you see fit :
------------

Pro's

New players gain circles and skills easier.

Con's

GM's drop even more responsibility, and have even less reason to attend regularly.

New players can easily join a guild and read their boards without restriction, completely destroying any privacy left to a guild.

Role play vanishes, people talk less, and all that remains is gaining a new rank so you can get your new circle... so you can get your new tattoo... so you can get that new piece of equipment...

Everyone will be a GM's lieutenant within a few months... everyone in a guild will be able to abuse the guild's storage chest.

Guilds get raped for thier skills as players outcast thierselves and bounce around guilds until rank 1 billion.

Joined: Posts: -19

Just as predicted, I was ignored.

Thorgrim wrote:

Drop role play? Are you serious?

Yes. I am. When was the last REALLY GOOD role play interaction you had with another player? I'm NOT talking about "Greetings, I am Thorgrim." "Hello, I am Zyghart." "Zyghart shakes your hand." I'm talking about, when was the last time you helped create a story with another player? When was it? I gaurentee, the last player interaction you had was hunting somewhere, and barely a word was spoken.

Thorgrim wrote:

Converting to numbers seems kinda boring, kinda like data entry or something.

Seeing your percents actually makes things MUCH easier.

Thorgrim wrote:

As for player numbers Ciroth, you are never around anyways. If you were around more you would realize there are more players out there.

Oh yeah? Well, I JUST logged on at 5:15 Eastern time. That's, 3:15PM Western time. 10:15PM in the UK. I was the only one on. Back in 2000, there were at LEAST 4 other people. Back in 2003, there would be at least somebody else.

Nobody RPs anyway. It doesn't do ys ANY good to hold onto it. If there ever is another GM council, NOBODY will know what to do.

As for the GMs, I still think they should be players. I'm just saying they need to have less power to kill anything that oposes them. EVERYBODY wants a GM artifact. Why? Because they are powerful. I've seen people delete when they lost a GM vote, and go into a Guild where they COULD become the Guild Master.

Guild loyalty is barely there, because of plots to overthrow the current GM and place themselves in their posistion. As soon as one GM is gone, another is there within days. All because of the artifacts. The GM is meant to HELP the guild. Not be able to completly destroy it if they wish.

There was a Mage GM, who made the Guild Dues SO high nobody could advance. Why? So he could run the entire Mage trading himself, and nobody else in his guild could pose a threat.

Zyghart wrote:

What's the rush to rank?

Because nearly all arguments end in "Draw your blade." When words fail, a weapon will get somebody's attention. If you weren't a Guild Master of powerful rank and respect, you might not be listened to.

There have been ATTEMPTS at low level characters trying to shape the politics, but they were ignored. If this TRULY was a RP enviroment, then those characters would be legends. But can YOU can a legendary character who wasn't rank 100+ at least?

Probably not, because this is a grindgame with a RP mask.

Joined: Posts: -19

This entire role play issue would be much more of a big deal if we had the playerbase, then I could understand where you are coming from.

Its hard to RP at all with a handful of regular players, and even less encouraging that our new players don't stick around. Which, in that respect I can understand where Melleth is coming from.

Far be it from me to name any names, suffice it to say that at least one one player has attempted a large role play event in the last month. The artifacts have always been a source of much contention, and as such they should. Indeed, one could say the the great many fights for GM and its subsequent artifact are one of the greatest RP events DS has to offer.

For a long time we have debated rules about RP, perhaps now there need to be clear and implicit lines or codes of conduct for GMs. No new player should be turned away from DS because of an inactive GM, and for certain none should be outcasted for voicing opinions about thier GM in thier own guild.

There is role playing here, we don't dress up at our computers and listen to Ren fair music... but it is here for those who want it. It is easy to be a critic Ciroth, much harder to make a difference.

And I'm not entirely sure how anyone ignored you, Melleth was simply offering alternatives that could help retain new players and make assimilation into a guild more seamless. Thorgrim may have disagreed with you, but he did not ignore. We will not all have the same opinions on the great many topics already brought forth here, but that doesn't mean we ignore each other.

This community has been around for years, some take advantage of it periodically... but eventually common ground is found.

Joined: Posts: -19

Taking away a GMs control of guild members will definitely solve a few problems, but I doubt it will revitalize our playerbase. It has become all too common, GMs outcasting a member for calling a vote, or telling said GM, "You are not fit to lead this guild!" Evelana and Sevristh are both guilty of this. Sevristh hides behind his guild charter, stating the only way to take his title is to best him in combat. How can a young fighter hope to even come close to being able to match his power (artifacts are incredibly powerful, especially the runes). If said younger member decides to rally their brethren against him, he simply outcasts him. Evelana demands roleplay for promotions, her own little brand of role play enforcement. (And pray she likes you, or you'll never get ANYWHERE!) Anyone calling a vote is promptly outcast for mutiny.

Their argument?

"It's my guild, I can do whatever I want."

Is this against the rules? I don't really know. I've read all the help files I could, but never found a solid answer. If it isn't, it definitely should be. There are too many control freaks out there who delight in holding people under their thumb. Some GMs don't even play, they just can't bear the thought of not having their uber character there, waiting, offline... One even told me once, "I can't even stand to play anymore, I just swore to myself I wouldn't delete anymore." The thought of simply stepping down from GM and retiring wasn't even an option. Is this caused by a dependency on the artifact, or the ego of having little members bowing to you and calling you Lord or Master.

Don't get me wrong folks, I LOVE the fact that players are the guildmasters, but its really easy for some jerk to get GM and ruin everyone elses good time. Too easy.

So I suggest this. Take away outcast for sure. Circles should come automatically with levels, up to circle 9, (i imagine circle 9 as being level 150 or so, with circle 2 being somewhere around 15-20)

GMs are not kings. They are not there to rule tyrannically over the populace, they are there to GUIDE lower members. They should be EXAMPLES of their class. (And in my personal opinion, they should be at least fairly active, logging in for an extended period of time, several times a week.)

As far as a solution for the playerbase? V O T E!

-Pibb

Joined: Posts: -19

Seems I'm in the minority here...

Really thought more people would have wanted the circles to stay, but oh well.

Possible solutions for problems in Con's from earlier :

1. Guild specific skills like 4th attack, assassinate, moonwell and harm touch should be moved ALL the way to the top of the circle ladder in attempt to counter the major dual guilding this going to cause. Though this does cause a problem with how long it would take to get said skills...

2. The highest circle to rank to should be 8, a GM should name their lieutenants and doing this would prevent storage chest abuse. Otherwise, we can just remove the key option for a circle 9 player to even use the chests. I would say remove guild storage entirely, but that would definitely dampen a new player's advantage.

3. Guild boards? We might as well remove them as well.

4. Artifacts?

I say it just becomes a quest available at some circle for any player in a guild and we bring back guild series items as well.

I see the way this is going and am starting to think that if we remove circles, we may as well strip a GM of all commands. We no longer need player GMs anyway, just make them NPCs and then the possibilities are endless...

A. Scheduled wars or some such when two guild's power reaches a certain level.
B. No more GM conflict, no more a-holes screwing things up for the rest of us.
C. Actually fighting a GM boss or watching 2 GM NPCs duking it out with each other!

The only limit is imagination.

Of course, alot of this could be fixed with a simple code of conduct for GMs. How hard is that to write?

Not very...

-----------------

Removing circles will cause many problems, but perhaps there is room for much growth without them.

Joined: Posts: -19

How about if everyone could promote to circle 2 automatically, by say getting to rank 20? This would give new players enough skills/spells to learn before they meet their GM. Future promotions would have to be done by the GM.

And how about getting rid of Outcast and Circle demotions? That would give players a chance at running for GM with out being tossed out.

Guild series items sound cool.

Joined: Posts: -19

Wow, I stop checking the site for 2 days and a real conversation heats up.

Alrighty, lets get down to business on this one, I've been fostering some thoughts on this for some time...

To the first subject, and to prove that I am not ignoring it -

1. Should we stop enforcing role play?

A. - As Zyghart has already so beautiful said, what is separating us from World of Warcraft, Final Fantasy XI, or any other sort of graphical mmo out there.

As for when the last real role play situation took place, I'd have to say perhaps last time I was about? I embarked on a quest to go treasure hunting, buried treasure too. It was quite enriching, a nice break from the levelling, grinding, etc

Perhaps you yourself just aren't trying hard enough on this one - while it does take two to tango, there is a good amount you can do to seduce the other player over into your role play net. TRY IT!

2. Going back to the number system?

A. - Hah! I thought this had already happened a long time ago. To be honest, whatever you have to work with, just set it up nicely and deal with it - you'll be use to in in a week or so - stop complaining.

3. Should we keep the guild quests?

A. - I always thought of the guild quests to be a bit clunky, cumbersome, and a really good reason for a new player to say "forget this, next mud."
Thats just my input on these though - but even as a former player, I have ALWAYS found these quests to be either too difficult, especially for a new player; or just too plain monotonous.

4. Guild circles - WHAT EVER SHALL WE DO?!

A. - This is one of the topics where I've spent a great deal investing thought and conversation into. As of late, I've been hearing the same complaint whenever I meet a (new) player - "My guild master is not around" "I can't learn any spells/skills because my guild master won't promote me"

I don't necessarily believe automating the promotion of guild circles to correspond with rank is the solution. As Zyghart has said earlier, this will further encourage the rat race type setting, in which levels are even MORE heavily weighted.

As you sit here and complain about higher leveled characters being remembered (which is very untrue to begin with, I have remembered many characters I have encountered not because of their feats of strength, but anyway) - be sure that this will all but guarantee that.

Guild circles exist so as to show and represent one's dedication to the guild and their believe system. If this is switched to an automated system, it would all but destroy the essence of which it was created for. The only two solutions would be to make it level based - increase every 20 ranks? (then when the whole guild hits 200, they can fight for gm hah!) Or to have it be based on log time or character created time? This one is obviously flawed as well, as not every player will obviously be devoting their time as every other member would be - thus an unfair representation.

Before anyone can scream about "unfair" and the current system of guild masters "controlling" everything, let me add my thoughts on the situation that is currently happening.

As I've said before, the theme lately has been that new members of guilds are having difficulty advancing through the circles either due to an inactive guild master, or by an "overtly condescending leader".

Innactive guild leaders should not be tolerated - the moment their leave extends beyond a given point (I'm leaning on 2 weeks, perhaps 1 full month for special circumstances perhaps?) they should be removed from their positions. It is ridiculous that one person can all but entirely screw a guild over for the better part of a year just because they wanted to obtain the guild leader spot, then decided they were bored with it and stopped logging.

This creates a cycle, as seen most explicitly in the Paladin guilds. I can remember a time in which the Grey and Light Paladins did not have a leader, nor more than 2 members to a guild - and from this it has not changed much. By not having an active gm, it dissuades ANYONE from joining that guild. Why on earth would you willing join a guild in which you could not learn many skills till you found a guild leader or you yourself were made guild leader, when there is another guild with an active guild leader. Player x wanted to be a Light Paladin, but instead is a fighter now, since player x does not wish to wait over a month to have a playable character. (understandable, it IS a game, I can understand the lack of patience when talking real life months)

The solution here is we would require a more timely transfer of powers between the offending "inactive" guild leader and the new coming of power player.

As for guilds that have a leader that actually shows up, but feel that they are "unfair, overbearing, or still inactive, hah, etc.", I have differing modes of thought. Lets review what was noted.

Quote:

Get rid of the GM power. Yes. It creates problems for the community when two players have OOC issues with each other.

OOC issues if handled by a 5 year old; potential RP conflict for most. A little bit of conflict and competition never hurt anyone, and besides the whole "point" is not to be the most powerful person in the guild, it is to have the most powerful guild as a whole (and I use powerful in a metaphysical sense, such as the most "powerful" priest might not always be the most burly ->before you can jump down my throat saying "SEE SEE H1GH L3v3l ftw")

Quote:

KEEP the artifacts, but make them symbols of the guild.

??? I never would have considered Fang to be the symbol of the Assassins' guild, ShRiN to be the symbol of the Fighters' guild, Avenger to be the symbol of Lutyre and the Light Paladins, etc etc. The truth is that they ARE symbols of the guild BECAUSE they aren't just symbols. Who the hell is going to remember or even care about some item that does nothing. "Fear the master assassin and his ShadowFang, wait, no...its just a hasplish, lets go home guys." xD

Quote:

The purpose of the GM is to help their guild. So get rid of their power to mow down all who oppose them, and place them in a position of responsibitly, NOT power.

I question whether or not you yourself have had to handle the responsibilities that come with the position of Guild Master, due to the light you speak of them in, as if they are nonexistent. Remember, guild masters are people too, people who would also like to enjoy their game. This is sometimes counterbalanced by the need to HELP their guild. This can either be by assisting fellow members within the guild, or by Roleplaying with them - and in this roleplay comes a good deal of what the guild circles are there for to begin with. I must say, that when I log in there are times when I want to just take care of business that I want to take care of, but CAN NOT because it is my RESPONSIBILITY to see to it that my guild is properly tended to and kept happy. (I hope my guild can attest to this, *laughs*)

What some might be viewing as "overtly condescending" could just be one guild leaders view at what their "responsibility" as a guild leader is.

I'll be blunt and throw it right out there - the biggest complaint lately has been from the Priest community. I've spoken with 3 (different?) characters who expressed feelings that they were being required too much for their circle promotions, and because of such could not advance within their guilds to learn effective spells and therefore be an effective priest.

Firstly, I do not know how the Priests handle their guild business, but I can assume it to be the way any guild that has a high investment in faith and religion (intangible objects). These intangibles would then require form of verification, that the person actually grasps and understands such said concepts. It seems that one of the few ways to do this would be to write them out within the guild, or for the guild's leader so they can have a concrete testament of one's faith. Another way for this to occur is through...amazing as it sounds...ROLE PLAY!!! That is how it HAS been done, that is how it IS STILL done, and how it WILL BE done.

NOW - If there IS a problem within the guild, and the leader has placed a stranglehold on advancement, there are systems in place to deal with it. And, as Zyghart said earlier, if a guild leader is abusing their power, then this is reportable. (and further noted, I believe many of these "offenses" had been reported, and nothing was done, which brings me to the notion that these leaders did nothing outside the realm of their "responsibility" to serve and protect the guild, as viewed by the Immortal staff)

How is it wrong for a leader of guild to see it fit that all young faith related students be required to possess a full working knowledge of their faith, other faiths, and the entire workings of the magical processes? Is it wrong for a leader to suspect that this new member is merely attempting to dethrone them for reasons that are not linked to the guild as a whole, and is a mere move of power on their part solely? Is it wrong for that leader to be concerned about the welfare of the guild should this situation occur? Is it wrong then for that leader to react using the power allotted to them by their very guild to protect it? That just sounds like good guild leading to me.

To wrap it all up, I believe this is nothing more than certain players not wanting to invest as much as what was once required. Something changed along the way from Dreamscapes 1 to Dreamscapes 2 where we are now, and it is not necessarily a good thing. I believe the player needs to be willing to invest more of themselves into the role playing realm of the game, and I do not seem to be the only one.

Joined: Posts: -19

VERY well spoken Vydon!

First off, I will respond to Pibby's accusations... Son, you need to get your facts straight. My guild charter says nothing of besting me in combat. There is a system in place to replace the fighter GM with due process. You'd know that if you were actually speaking from experience, and not just spouting the words of an offended friend. Furthermore, your friend had PLENTY of chances to actually RP through the mess that he made. A mess, I might add, which was made by extremely poor choices IC as well as flaming OOC posts.

That brings me to the conclusion that was spoken of by Vydon... The problem in DS is not that we need to drop the RP. It's that we need ENFORCEMENT of it!! This mud benefited SO much when there were IMMs about that were actively watching players and making sure that RP was kept up and that there were consequences for breaking the RP rules. Unfortunately good IMMs that are willing to devote their time to "babysitting" are hard to find.

Let me also say this... If you want to come into a mud and level without hindrance, as others have said, go play WoW. When you come into a mud that involves RP, you are going to run up against rules and laws. If you think that in a mideival setting that you can just be outspoken against your GM as a level 20 character, you're pretty disillusioned. A differing point of view might be tolerated in the Ranger guild or maybe the Priests (provided it's RP'd right), but in a Fighter's guild?? The Fighter's guild is set up in a militaristic way and member behavior is expected to fall within those lines. Pibby, go read the charter sometime with a newbie char and you'll see that's precisely so.

I do like the idea of automatically promo'ing circles to around circle 5 or so, but then as was stated previously, we'll have a problem with people cruising in and out of guilds getting all the skills they want and passing on (which I might add, is most likely a reason behind those that want this instituted in the first place...power hunger....wanting the baddest dual char).

As far as doing away with the power of outcast, we need to seriously consider what might be put in place to deal with unruly char's in an IC way. Since death is not permanent, there would be no repercussions for unrealistic RP such as a level 1 char going up to his GM in front of a crowd and crowing about how he sucks etc. The player decision of whether or not to go FoS already creates enough problems in this area.

-Sev

Joined: Posts: -19

I have to make this short and not so sweet because I am actually packing for a vacation right now.

I feel that RP is essential for DS. It doesn't have to be paragraph on paragraph soap-opera style drama, but I do expect to be able to play a character, in a fantasy setting. This is what I have been playing DS for 12 years for, and this is what I expect to see from DS for the next 12 years (should I play that long). Plain and simple. If I wanted to play by numbers, I'd play another game. If you don't want to RP with me, leave me alone. In that vein, yes, my guild is quite difficult. I am far from an inactive guild leader, and I am not the tyrant people would like to see me as. Being a Priest is tough. It always has been, always will be. This is an intrisnic quality of being a Priest that has everything to do with the nature of their role in the realm. It has nothing to do with me liking you, and the person in question being outcast for calling a vote was also later BANNED, which stands to prove the quality of their playing, something I did not want to see affect the guild I've grown to love over the past decade. I've had many chracters oppose my views, constructively, and move on to be very powerful characters. Thats great with me. Besides, the Priest guild isn't for everyone. I'd never play a Fighter (no offense), it's not my style. Being a Priest isn't everyone's style.

IMMs who enforce RP would be much better than dropping RP. If that means some people lose their desire too play because it's too involved, so be it. Our core of long-term players are excellent RP'ers (Vydon, Sevristh, Vesper, Thea, Aikmen, Maelius to name a few). Maybe I don't see them often, but when I do, I enjoy our exchanges (even if we're fighting).

Inactive GM's are a big issue. Sometimes people percieve GM's as being inactive when they are not, because they don't happen to be on at the same time. This is easily overcome, and rpable by mudmail and guild boards. Having an online theatre for gaming is still better than tabletop, but still has it's degree of inconvenience. But as for truely inactive GMs, I think that the timeframe of inactivity should be reduced to maybe 3 weeks, and it should be an automatic process. As for who takes the leadership after those 3 weeks, that should be up to the guilds to decide their criteria. As for automatic circle promotions, I'd be fine with that, for the first circle maybe... After that, for my guild, that would make guild circles pointless for my guild, as each circle requires knowledge tests which serve as a checkpoint. 5 circles is a long way to go without checking in on a Priest's knowledge. Not only that, but by circle 5 people have skills that some people simply come to the guild for and leave. It welcomes abuse.

Anyway, I really am going to be absent for a week. Vegas baby yeaaaahhhh. Too bad we couldn't all get that DS con together, maybe another time Wink

Soooooo, maybe I'll revisit this thread and touch on more topics when I get back...