Heroes and Villains

Joined: Posts: -19

There was an interesting conversation going on the other night regarding how people are now playing DS. the lack of true RP was mentioned, and the differences between RP and IC acting, and how overwhelmingly difficult it could be to try to bring RP back into the game, given that the current status quo is "level so you can take out any uber mob", or as someone said, act like a jerk and cover it up with questionable RP.

The state of RP in DS is sad. We all know that. And people say, oh yeah, we'll bring it back. We'll RP! RP is out there, you just have to look for it!

Question: WHY should we have to search so hard? Shouldn't it be forcefully present as soon as you enter the game?

I think that until we really understand why RP is so lukewarm, we won't know how to bring it back. That said, some thoughts to start this conversation:

RP in a game like ours is motivated by two main concepts: heroism and villainy. The heroes are the ones who will sacrifice everything they have for the "greater good", even if it means that they cease to exist. They're the guys who will selflessly take up a sword in the name of what's right and good in the world, who will strike out against evil. It's a selfless devil-take-all mentality... you do what needs to be done. This has been undermined by the current trend to compete not only with those at your own level range, but those who are higher with you. We see our game time as an investment, and a heroic gesture in which we might lose exp, gold or eq is a risk on our investment. We've gone from being heroic to being robotic.

And then you have the villains. If heroes are the headliners, it's the villians who add the depth and complexities to the story. They create the situation that requires action, movement and thought. Without a villain, there is no story. Unfortunately, villainy has been reduced to grudges that no one even really remembers the reasons for, or when examined prove baseless. Many of these grudges freely cross over any life and game boundaries, making any story ultimately useless and worthless. You end up with perfect villians who are not free to be villains. As one newcomer recently said, "It's amazing how honorable you sneaky evil types are."

Opportunities abound for RP that is complex and rewarding. Unfortunately, unless we move past the levelling treadmill mentality, I fear these opportunities will not be taken. We need to lose that fear of not being the perfect killing machine and embrace the idea of creating a creature that is flawed, tragic even. Until we're ready to delve into the depths of our characters' potential, all DS will ever be is a place to kill monsters.

That was my turn. Who's next?

PS: As told to others who said that people who are high level can't have an opinion on this because it seems hypocritical:

This is supposed to be an open conversation that makes people THINK. It's supposed to be an aha moment, THIS is what's wrong with DS. '

It's supposed to be a way to get us on track to fixing it.

It's not about this side or that side, or who's level 1 or 201.

It's an issue we're ALL facing and we ALL need to address.

So be constructive. This was started with good intentions.

NOW. Your turn.

Joined: Posts: -19

I agree that the ranking treadmill, play-by-numbers type of activity that has been going on needs to change. One of the things that has kept me in DS for the last 10+ years has been the RP. Even before DS2, things were starting to decline. During the absence in the game, it appears the RP mentality faded, or the more exciting characters disappeared. It seems moreso these days that RP is -discouraged-, everybody's too busy, too lazy, and too uninvolved to bother. I bother, and it bothers me. If you don't want to RP, why bother coming to a realm where such effort has been put into developing a distinct environment.

As Tarris pointed out, it's not hard to RP. Say something, throw out some socials, wear something unusual. Make SOME effort. Please.

And rerolling to no end. Why not just play out your character, flawed or not? We get crappy stats, characters make mistakes, reputations get tarnished, characters get boring. Go with it. Or if you do reroll, play your new character as just that, a new character. We all have pasts. Just because you may have been so and so in your past life does not entitle your new character to any privileges. If you do feel the need to mention previous characters, at least do it OOC. Walking around, saying in character, "I was a different man once, and was very important" is tiresome. At least say "my father/mother was," or just pour out your lineage OOC.

I'm sorry for the rant, there are some good RP'ers in the realm, and I enjoy them immensly. I just get frustrated when MY attempts to RP are rebuffed by people who just aren't willing to play. We don't all need to get along, in fact, it would be more interesting if IC we didn't...

Joined: Posts: -19

Question: CAN heroes exist in DS? There's always a place for villains, but is there really a place for heroes here? It seems that all motivation is greed: getting rich, getting powerful, becoming influential. We all do something for something, and for heroism to exist it must have no reward; it needs to be purely idealistic.

Does that kind of player even exist anymore? Even more, it's doubtful they ever existed: heroic acts are, at the least, expected to receive some recognition and praise, making it distinctly non-heroic.

Maybe there really isn't a place for heroes in DS. If that's the case, how do we move past the RP-apathy barrier?

I have a couple of ideas, but I'm interested in seeing what others come up with.

Joined: Posts: -19

Heh, I've been as guilty of it as anyone. The reason why I quit my old mud was that it became nothing but the grind. At some point, if you're focused, everyone will reach 200. Beyond that, there's very little besides what we make of it.

We need to come up with engaging storylines and reasons for our character reactions. At the moment 'in character' actions seem like a convenient excuse rather than a primary motivator in interacting with others. The Tales of Adventure, GM meetings, etc aren't happening anymore. It's a sad trend, and one that we should work to reverse, I think.

Joined: Posts: -19

I think the problem starts before the gave even starts. When we talk about our next characters, we're talking about which class combinations would give the strongest uberplayer. Storylines aren't even touched.

What if.. and this is a wild idea... we created a character from the bottom up? We figure out where they came from, how they were raised, how they thing, what they believe, and let THAT determine what guild they should be. We don't even worry about all the dualling issues: that comes in time, if appropriate. But just imagine... rolling up a char that you've already brought to life in your mind.

Isn't that how it's supposed to be?

I'm playing with this idea for a priest. He's like, the 5th son of a lower-class nobleman. The family has some holdings, but nothing a 5th son will ever inherit. So, needing some way to make a living, the family educates him to become a priest. Gets a great education from monks, very learned, all of that. The priesthood is what's expected, so that's what he does.

There's just one problem. He doesn't really believe in any god. All that blind faith stuff just never made sense to our learned fellow. Oh dear. Whatever shall he do?

All of this makes him a very nervous fellow. He's afraid of letting his family down, even though honestly, his family couldn't care less. He does admire his mentors, and he does want to do well for their sake, and so he tries... and tries and tries and tries to be good and believe like a good little priest, but it's just not happening. This makes for a very anxious and pitiful individual, although perhaps, in his calmer moments, he might actually be discovered to be a likable and witty person.

Obviously he'll never be a mighty priest. But if i roll this guy up, he might end up being my favorite character of all. He already kind of is, and he's not even a sure thing yet.

I just think we need more of that.

Joined: Posts: -19

Agreed Tarris. Or, if not coming into the game with a background for one's character, perhaps play off of what you roll. If you roll strong fighting stats, why not play out a fighting type and just see where it goes. Make a story out of their flaws and merits. Instead of "My character has 18 strength", make it "I come from a long line of fighting champions". Yeah, that sound a little arrogant, but that works too Wink

Just a suggestion.

Joined: Posts: -19

I've also noticed a decline, I have not been around 10 plus years or so.. But I've been around long enough to see DS rise to its prime, sit there a while and somewhat decline RP wise.

DS 2 does lack even the smaller Rp charms 1 and 1.5 had. Such as even simple triggers for spells, being hungry/thirsty ect ect. Also, yes stats and uber characters, spells and mobs, quests.. all these things are shared too freely ICly.

Though also alot of other multipliers have changed as well.

Immortals used to be more involved, (I'm aware, the immortals are very busy these days IRL, and I know a few others are cooking up ideas for us players to enjoy) But what if there was Imm-player discussion about Rp events, or just a random one done by an immortal once a month?

I know ICly a handful of players have set up a wonderful Idea for a festival, and I completely support it. Leading by example is always a good way to encourage more Rp.

The player base isn't what it used to be either, though we are growing slowly again. When more players were about there was more people interacting with new people all the time. Anymore i've noticed that everyone has somewhat drifted off into their own little groups, and rarely venture out of them to interact with anyone else.

As for building characters from the ground up, I still do. Always have. Be it dual or non dual character. Gives you a better feel for your character that way, also makes it a bit more interesting ICly when you have to decide to do something that would weaken them ect ect. Also makes wars and other such things more interesting.

Anyhow, I do believe RP shouldn't slowly sink into the DS archives. Perhaps a bit of immortal involvement would help, even if its small rewards based on them lurking around and watching us Wink

Not to say that one should HAVE to be rewarded to Rp, but it might convince some of those Semi-Rpers to pick up the slack a bit.

Joined: Posts: -19

I would like to start by saying I am a big fan of roleplaying. Though, with this character, I have pretty much been on a mission for ranks. So far he is probably the beefiest I've had in my near decade. (Have had a few higher leveled, but none quite as powerful.) I am just as guilty as anyone though, of not roleplaying.

That being said, I would like to bring up meta-gaming. It's not really an issue very often, but I'll spell it out anyway. Meta-gaming is a term I've come across in my roleplay experience which is defined as this: Using information IC that your character no business knowing. (i.e. you found things out OOC and applied them IC)

This doesn't happen as much as it could, but I believe that is mainly because there isn't much ACTUAL RP to infect with it. Confused

Another problem, and I think this one is probably the biggest. Acting a certain way towards a character, not based on who that character is/what that character does, but based on who is sitting behind the keyboard. I have seen a lot of problems over the years because soandso screwed over whatshisface on their last character and they hate them so much, so now whatshisface hates soandso's new character, for no reason other than some now OOC events.

With a player base as small as we have here, this affects almost everything. I couldn't begin to name all the problems this has caused, not to mention a few guild wars. It's a shame that people can't just let go of some things. It's just a game folks. And if soandso did something to whatshisface OOC, or IRL, what reason is that to bring those issues into the game? It might be hard to overlook, sure. To smile and be nice IC to someone that killed your dog IRL, but if you can't handle it, don't play. (Unless of course he killed your dog IC too, the by all means, murder the bastard.)

In my opinion things like this are by far Dreamscapes biggest roleplay problem.

On a side note, I do believe this is not an adult mud. While I am ranting I may as well bring this up. Several people have told me during the last war that some very naughty demands were made of certain people by certain people. Things like that have no business in DS, in my opinion. Even if it were only adults involved, there is a certain line that must be drawn and not crossed. I did not personally witness these demands, so I am unsure if they are true or false. But if they are indeed true then I am deeply saddened and offended. If false, I apologize for even mentioning it. And if I hear of anything like that happening again I will most definetly bring it to immortal attention.

If you are too immature to play games, I don't know what to tell you. Go away I guess.

Thats my two cents. Plink Plink. /end rant

-C

Joined: Posts: -19

RP!

Joined: Posts: -19

I personally think one of the biggest problems is that many people here have never actually been engaged in RP before - they think that being IC is the same thing as role playing.

Make no mistake, being IC is wonderful and definitely a step up from not being so.

But roleplaying is something more proactive, while simply existing in character generally something passive. Role playing involves plots and storylines, and sometimes, some OOC collaboration with people your IC character would never speak to or involve themselves with.

But I think that once those who haven't RP'd before are exposed to some good RP, they might actually see how fun it can be. - Auliya.

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I've actually been working on a post on roleplay etiquette to post up here to preempt (hopefully) soon coming RP, so look for it! Also, if you have anything you think I might miss or you'd like me to add, please shoot me a PM.

Joined: Posts: -19

The issue still relates to the size of the playerbase. You can't make a gallon of orange juice with 4 oranges, ya know? =)

Joined: Posts: -19

Oh yeah? I'll show you!

"Can I have some orange with that water?" Twisted Evil

Though I believe RP is somewhat on the up and up.. slowly.

I don't wander through keltrath and find people asking "sup?" as much as I once did, nor do you find the random conversation about the game last night. People do seem to be more IC, even if they aren't standing around having elaborate Roleplaying sessions.

Joined: Posts: -19

If you RP...they will come

Joined: Posts: -19

All it takes is figuring out what type of character you play (as in personality, quirks, mannerisms, and whatnot) and being that character at all times. Start a conversation about something ingame. Don't just say "Hey, I'm Sance. Who're you?" Make a conversation out of it! I Think DS can get back to what it once was, if we all start roleplaying again.

A few tips for roleplaying:
1) Use proper spelling, punctuation, and capitalization whenever possible. Looking like you're speaking properly helps set the mood for a great roleplay. It's hard to get in character with someone talking to you like "hi im Sance who r u????" Say something like, "Greetings, Gnome! A fine day it is today, yes?" *A few lines later* "Ah, how rude of me, we've been speaking this whole time as if we were old friends, yet I have not even offered my name! I am Sance, crafter of fine weapons and armor, of the Dwarven Stronghold of Loch Denor." It makes a big difference!

2) Always stay in character when possible, and if absolutely necessary, use an (OOC) at the beginning of your sentences, to let people know you're going OOC, or just use the OOC channel, if you need to announce something that would disrupt roleplay.

3) Read into your class and race, and find out if there's a specific way that your class or race usually roleplays. Not that you need to stick with the normal Dwarven dialects of "Aye, it be great ta meet ya, laddie!". My dwarf, for example, is very well spoken in Common. Find out what they "usually" sound like, and adapt to that! Seeing a few different dialects in the game while playing would definately enhance roleplay.

Now, I can't tell you how to roleplay, or anything like that, but there are "guidelines" that you can read up on to get an idea of what a certain class or race or deity expects of their members. For instance, you normally wouldn't find a Paladin of Belial walking around helping random people, or donating to charities. They're instruments of chaos, meant to banish the light from the world. But everyone RP's differently, and that's what makes DS such a great place!

But, go, do some research, and start roleplaying today, even if nobody else is, because someone will see you roleplaying, and that might make them start roleplaying as well, and soon, we'll all be doing it!

-Sance

Joined: Posts: -19

I'm not sure if the population problems we had in the past are still there, but that was/is definetly a problem when I was around. And it still seems to be there acording to Vydon's post.

See, nobody was used to interacting. Typically if anybody was on, they were alone, or on around the times other players they were friendly with. So they'd group up with their friends and go hunting. No real conversations, or RP, just go spell, hunt, rank, repeat. Hell, typically players had to just solo. So they end up getting used to strictly hunting, and not really NEEDING to RP.

If an enemy was on, they avoided each other. When players who don't know each other's names meet up it's such a shock they hardly know what to say after the tradional "Nice to meet you" lines. And end up going back to hunting.

It's been a problem for the DS community for awile now.

Yeah, we got people trying to keep the RP going, but it hard when a new character is just an old player who rerolled. Savvy?

sance wrote:

All it takes is figuring out what type of character you play (as in personality, quirks, mannerisms, and whatnot) and being that character at all times. Start a conversation about something ingame. Don't just say "Hey, I'm Sance. Who're you?" Make a conversation out of it! I Think DS can get back to what it once was, if we all start roleplaying again.

I agree with you. BUT, while we've had sevral players who do that, the size of the community doesn't let them get very far with it. We all kind of fall into trademark mannerisms. It's also hard when most arguments (when they happen)end up with "Draw your blade." Rather than people bouncing ideas off each other for interaction.

What we really need is MORE players.