possible bug in available spells

Joined: Posts: -19

Greetings all,

Recently been working on increasing my chars' circle. One of the requirements to do that is to learn the spell "Strength". Current char rank is 9.

Here are the spells available to char (just a portion to conserve space):

Health(unscathed) Mana(untapped) Moves(fully rested) > spells available

Spell Name Pre-requisite Rank(s) Circle Mana CastTime
================================================================================
armor ---- 1 ( 4) 1 71 6
magic missile ---- 1 ( 4) 1 71 1
identify ---- 1 ( 4) 1 71 10
illuminate ---- 1 ( 4) 1 71 3
detect magic ---- 2 ( 5) 1 74 2
shocking grasp ---- 2 ( 5) 1 74 1
burning hands ---- 3 ( 6) 1 77 1
chill touch ---- 4 ( 7) 1 80 1
sleep ---- 4 ( 7) 1 80 1
blindness ---- 6 ( 9) 1 86 2
create spring ---- 6 ( 9) 1 90 15
strength ---- 7 ( 10) 1 89 10
detect alignment ---- 8 ( 11) 1 91 10
invisibility ---- 9 ( 12) 1 95 2
continual light illuminate 9 ( 12) 1 95 5
poison ---- 10 ( 13) 1 98 4
tongues ---- 10 ( 13) 1 98 6

When char goes to learn strength from her trainer, the spell does not show up. This doesn't seem to happen to others, so am wondering if it has something to do with what char is wearing:

<worn on head> a mystical hat
<worn around neck> an amethyst pendant
<at right shoulder> a steel longsword
<worn about body> a wizards robe
<worn on body> a luminescent jerkin
<worn on back> a bottomless pack
<worn about waist> braided silver cords
<at right hip> a shortsword
<at left hip> a rune etched staff
<worn on legs> some silver hemmed leggings
<worn on feet> shimmering boots
<worn on arms> glowing silver armbands
<worn around wrist> a crystal wrist guard
<worn around wrist> a crystal wrist guard
<worn on hands> some bright silver gloves
<worn on finger> a ring of wizardry
<worn on finger> a ring of wizardry

(not sure how to log things yet)
Char goes to trainer and says "Practice"

Health(unscathed) Mana(untapped) Moves(fully rested) > You have 0 practice sessions remaining.
I can teach you about :
armor 53 % 0 gold blindness 0 % 0 gold
burning hands 0 % 0 gold chill touch 0 % 0 gold
detect magic 0 % 0 gold identify 0 % 0 gold
illuminate 0 % 0 gold magic missile 49 % 0 gold
shocking grasp 0 % 0 gold sleep 0 % 0 gold

This, obviously, is the spell trainer. Note, there is no "strength" spell. It is the same when char has practice sessions.

Is this a bug?

Joined: Posts: -19

Darriellyn wrote:

Greetings all,

Spell Name Pre-requisite Rank(s) Circle Mana CastTime
strength ---- 7 ( 10) 1 89 10

No, this is not a bug, this happened because you spent 3 ranks as an adventurer, where is says Rank(s) you have 7 (10) the 7 is the rank you can normally learn the spell had you never promoted as an adventurer, the (10) is the rank you can actually learn the spell calculated at adventurer ranks + spell Rank requirement.

Joined: Posts: -19

Thallid wrote:

Darriellyn wrote:

Greetings all,

Spell Name Pre-requisite Rank(s) Circle Mana CastTime
strength ---- 7 ( 10) 1 89 10

No, this is not a bug, this happened because you spent 3 ranks as an adventurer, where is says Rank(s) you have 7 (10) the 7 is the rank you can normally learn the spell had you never promoted as an adventurer, the (10) is the rank you can actually learn the spell calculated at adventurer ranks + spell Rank requirement.

Thank you, Thallid. Is this written anywhere in the help files? If so, I must have missed it. I appreciate knowing why this has happened.

Joined: Posts: -19

No, it's not written in any help files. Most new players end up gaining a few ranks in the Adventuers guild because they are learning they're way around, hunting a bit, and THEN doing the entrence quest.

Most players who've been here awile know that gaining any ranks in the Adventuers' Guild is a total waste, and head straight for the Historian so they can get started on their entrence Quest. The bright side is you only gained 3 ranks...

Now, you CAN delete your current character, use the same name, and start over and not have to to gain extra ranks to learn the spell, or you can deal with the extra 3 ranks and keep going. If you delete, you risk having to work for the same stats you have now, but then again, you may grab better ones. It honestly up to you.

Joined: Posts: -19

Qiroth wrote:

No, it's not written in any help files. Most new players end up gaining a few ranks in the Adventuers guild because they are learning they're way around, hunting a bit, and THEN doing the entrence quest.

Most players who've been here awile know that gaining any ranks in the Adventuers' Guild is a total waste, and head straight for the Historian so they can get started on their entrence Quest. The bright side is you only gained 3 ranks...

Now, you CAN delete your current character, use the same name, and start over and not have to to gain extra ranks to learn the spell, or you can deal with the extra 3 ranks and keep going. If you delete, you risk having to work for the same stats you have now, but then again, you may grab better ones. It honestly up to you.

First I want to thank you for your reply: Thank you.

re: it being written anywhere in help files, thanks for the confirmation.

A concern for newbie might be that thy are afraid to take on any quests due to their utter lack of skill/abillities. At least not in terms of any guild quests.

I don't know of anyone who wants to go out and get killed twenty times before completing their first guild quest. Higher guild quests are an entirely different story and is governed by entirely different parameters.

As interesting as the death sequence is, it is still a death sequence, and the char is still subject to complete loss of everything they ever had up to the point that they were killed, including xp and gp. The advantage of the Adventurers Guild, at the very least, is their willingness to provide new weapons and armor if your char is killed if the char simply asks for it.

However, if the char is not a member of the adventurers guild then there is absolutely no way to recover all the armor and weaponry one had before death. No other guild, as far as I know, offers that sort of replacement or support.
In fact, at least as I understand it, all of the guilds refuse to offer any weaponry or armor support in terms of guild members when that guild member is killed. The only exception, of course, being The Adventurers Guild.

For me, when it is clear that no guilds that I have checked will support their members, even through death, it becomes necessary to take a hit in rank if it means being assured that there is ample support in case a member of their guild has been killed. Of course, once a char leaves the adventurers guild they are no longer eligible to even enter the Adventurers Guild. Other guilds, at least the ones that my char has checked out, do not support their guild members in case of death (exception of course is Temples or Clerics Guild).

The above paragraphs do not take into consideration the fact that when a newbie is killed, they are likely to be killed at least another two or three times, in the arena, before they are ever even capable of taking on a simple guild quest. If those newbies attempt to take on a guild quest before they are capable of doing so and because they are forced to in able to join a guild, then that char will be killed, multiple times and have literally nothing to show for it -- especially since they lose XP everytime they are killed. XP that is sufficient enough to knock a newbie char back down by at least two levels in some cases.

When that does happen, and it does on a regular basis for newibie chars, it means that the char must regain those XP in some way. If it is two or three levels worth of loss, they may not lose their rank at death, but they will have to gain that rank all over again in terms of the XP that is now, after death and the loss of XP, required to get to the next rank. This applies in terms of gold (unless you have used the bank), weapons and armor as well.

No, I am not criticizing the cross-guild training requirements, not at all. In fact I am not criticizing anything, just notateing observations.

Qiroth wrote:

Now, you CAN delete your current character, use the same name, and start over and not have to to gain extra ranks to learn the spell, or you can deal with the extra 3 ranks and keep going. If you delete, you risk having to work for the same stats you have now, but then again, you may grab better ones. It honestly up to you.

I don't actually mind dealing with the difference in ranks associated with cross-guild training as there are certain advantages to that sort of extra training for certain types of chars. I was not "complaining" about anything.

I simply had no idea why my char, of all chars, was being singled out as not eligible to receive specific spells at a specific level/rank when other chars were receiving specific spells at the levels/ranks noted in the "skills available" page. It is not something that can be discussed ICly.

When it became clear that the lack of availabillity of a specific spell had to do with the fact that my char was in another guild for several ranks it was easy enough for me to understand why I wasn't seeing specific types of practices when others of my chars' chosen guild were seeing those same types of practicable spells.

Now that I understand the "why" of it, I am comfortable with what may be considered restrictions because they are fair restrictions that I would have included myself had I had the opportunity to do so. All it means is that my first rank to receive any further spells, etc. is a little higher than it normally would be had my char immediately went to the guild of choice after immigration -- it is good to know that my char is close enough to the actual rank necessary that she will be able to learn the necessary spells, if only just a little later than someone who had been in the mages' guild longer than she has been.
It also means that my char will have a higher stats than anyone who might have immediately gone to the guild of choice when they were just out of the immigration building.
It also means that a side-by-side (rank-by-rank) comparison would make my char likely a bit stronger in certain areas than someone who might have started their guild training immediately after comeing out of the immigration halls. Maybe my char doesn't have the spells that someone else has at my chars' rank within the Mages' guild, but my char does, in most cases, have more hp and movement than that other char whose base rank matches my chars base rank within the guild she has chosen.
Admittedly, there is a certain satisfaction to knowing that my char does have higher stats than others at my chars' base rank within my chars' chosen guild.

Thank you again, Qiroth, for your input. It is much appreciated.

Joined: Posts: -19

First off.. I skipped a lot of your post, since I've had a long weekend and I'd probably fall asleep reading through something only half as long. I did want to address some of your statements, though.

All guilds have guild stores, and these stores offer equipment that is perfectly suitable for someone at your level. For those who've outgrown them, there should always be some equipment available in the guild donation room, and guildmates should ideally be ready and willing to lend a hand in helping you equip if you lose your items due to death. Of course, this requires guild participation, and a lot of that has to do with how the GM encourages the guild to act. I know at least in the druid guild, I try to keep it well stocked (although my recent issues with being deleted and having to start over, etc have made for rather meager donation room offerings, it still has a few worthy items thanks to other druids). Also, I've never known a druid lose everything and not have at least one offer of help from a guildmate.

Secondly, about quild circle quests... the GM should have a fair idea of what is and what is not doable for someone seeking a certain circle. I would not ask someone who is seeking Circle 2 to do the same thing that someone ready to seek Circle 7 would do. At least let your GM know how many times you've seen your trainer when you ask for a promotion, so they'll have an idea of what's within your reach and what's completely unreasonable. I personally avoid quests that have to do with killing mobs, since it's not particularly druidlike, and still allows low-rank druids to shine through RP. I suppose you could say that I don't consider rank a good indicator of worthiness within a guild.

Anyways, talk to your GM if you feel the quest is beyond you, or just ask for some help. I wouldn;t mind my guild asking for help, unless I specify that they must do it on their own. Check with your GM about that too. As for equipment, again, guilds are meant to help meet your needs. But if you don't ask your guild for help, they may not know you need it.

Good luck.
Kalveri

Joined: Posts: -19

Kalveri wrote:

First off.. I skipped a lot of your post, since I've had a long weekend and I'd probably fall asleep reading through something only half as long. I did want to address some of your statements, though.

All guilds have guild stores, and these stores offer equipment that is perfectly suitable for someone at your level. For those who've outgrown them, there should always be some equipment available in the guild donation room, and guildmates should ideally be ready and willing to lend a hand in helping you equip if you lose your items due to death.
...

Secondly, about quild circle quests... the GM should have a fair idea of what is and what is not doable for someone seeking a certain circle. I would not ask someone who is seeking Circle 2 to do the same thing that someone ready to seek Circle 7 would do. At least let your GM know how many times you've seen your trainer when you ask for a promotion, so they'll have an idea of what's within your reach and what's completely unreasonable.

...talk to your GM if you feel the quest is beyond you, or just ask for some help. I wouldn;t mind my guild asking for help, unless I specify that they must do it on their own. Check with your GM about that too. As for equipment, again, guilds are meant to help meet your needs. But if you don't ask your guild for help, they may not know you need it.

Good luck.
Kalveri

Thank you, Kalveri, for your reply.

I do know that my guild does have a place to get minimal weaponry and armor for members of my guild. I have also, in effect, donated items there as well. It is good to know that other guilds also have that option available to their members.